Mary Kassian, a loving wife and mother of three adult sons, spends her time cultivating love and quality relationships within the walls of her home. Along with dedicating herself to caring for her family and home, Mary has become a major influence in impacting lives. She is a highly sought after speaker, well-respected professor at Southern Baptist Seminary, and an award-winning author. Mary has become a central influence and voice in women’s ministry, specifically encouraging women to re-establish biblical womanhood in a way that glorifies and magnifies Jesus Christ.
Perhaps best known for her recent book Girls Gone Wise in a World Gone Wild, Mary tackles this topic of biblical womanhood in a life-changing way. Through twenty points of contrast between a Girl Gone Wise and a Girl Gone Wild centered on Proverbs 7, Mary gives practical, biblically-sound advice that paints a clear picture of what God intended for men, women, and the relationship between them.
Recently, I had the opportunity to sit down with Mary to talk about Girls Gone Wise in a World Gone Wild in depth. What she had to say impacted me significantly, and I believe it will do the same for you.
Start Marriage Right: What was your motivation for writing Girls Gone Wise?
Mary Kassian: It was a response to a culture where “girls going wild” has become the defining mark of an entire generation of women. The trend goes way beyond the women who are college-aged and exposing themselves during spring break. “Wildness” is a mentality prevalent among virtually all women. The Bible says that we are wild whenever we rely on self, or on the advice of others, rather than on God for knowing how to life. Because of the feminist movement, today’s women think that they have the right to claim power for themselves, and define what womanhood, sex, morality and male-female relationships are all about. “Wildness” is something that a lot of women in the church definitely wrestle with, because being Wild is currently upheld as the ideal for womanhood. I wrote Girls Gone Wise to counter the cultural ideal for womanhood with the ideal presented by the Bible.
SMR: When we hear “Girls Gone Wild,” we often think of college-aged, single girls who are exposing themselves for some attention, but you mention that “Girls Gone Wild” are marked by “wild” characteristics that can show up in a woman of any age, marital status, and stage of life. How can we identify these “wild” girls? Why is it important to do so?
Mary: It’s very easy to point the finger at all those wild girls out there and to find women whose behavior is wilder than ours is, but really what the Bible always call us to is a personal account in terms of our own behavior, the choices and decision that we make, and how we decide to live. The Bible calls us to examine our own hearts. The Proverbs 7 account was written for a young man to help him identify the difference between the wild and wise woman. It was important for him to know what type of woman he ought to avoid. And as women, this passage teaches us what type of woman we ought to avoid being. Really it is for our benefit, so that we may strive to become increasingly wiser and less wild in our behavior, to conform our hearts more and more to Scripture.
SMR: You examine the cautionary story of the wild woman described in Proverbs 7 and identify twenty points of contrast between her and the woman the Bible upholds as wise. Briefly, which of these points do you feel are most important for women to grasp a hold of?
Mary: The first and overriding point is heart—whether her heart is captivated with Jesus. That, of course, is the biggest and most important point of contrast because we can get our behavior right, but if we don’t have our hearts right, then it just becomes legalism. If we have our hearts right and we are pursuing God, then our behavior will change. Heart is always the crux, and it’s always a heart issue that the Lord goes for when He seeks to correct our behavior. A heart that’s positioned toward Christ will help us make godly decisions far more than a list of dos or don’ts ever would. So, number one would be heart.
I would think there are several others that would definitely be right up there. Next, I would say counsel — where a girl goes for her advice in terms of how she should be living, how she should be making her choices, and what she sees as ideal for womanhood. Approach is also important: the approach to male-female relationships, whether a woman is manipulative, using a wily approach, controlling approach, or whether she’s following the Lord’s plan for that. Sexual conduct is a big one. Roles are important too.
Appearance is another one that’s huge for many women, but sometimes not as much for Christian woman as for girls who are raised in an ungodly environment. So, there you have it. But as I said before, number one would definitely be heart.
You know, it’s funny because I went through a list of the 20 points of contrast with some of my students asked them to identify the top five. They really had a hard time because everybody had a different perspective on what was important, and they basically decided that they are ALL important and interrelated. Teachability is another important trait — the eagerness to learn God’s ways.
SMR: The feminist movement of the 60’s and 70’s informed the world that marriage and motherhood were men’s evil scheme to enslave and oppress women for their own selfish male agenda. In what ways has this outlook influenced women today?
Mary: I think that women, in general, have a somewhat negative view toward marriage and children. Marriage is being delayed. A career is held up as much more important and desirable than motherhood. Having children is being delayed and is not seen as desirable. It’s only seen as desirable if it contributes towards a woman’s self-actualization.
Also, the woman’s movement has given women an enormous sense of entitlement. And the thought that she has the right to dictate who she is and what womanhood is all about. What naturally flows from this is that she has a right to tell men what manhood is all about. It’s influenced women enormously in many different ways.
It’s influenced male-female relationships and the way that women approach their dating relationships. Often now women are the aggressors. Roles are seen as interchangeable. When we go with what the world says, that pattern really affects a woman’s ability to sustain a relationship. Women today are often stuck in relational revolving doors, moving from one relationship to another to another. They are having trouble making relationships work. The formula that they’ve been given is counterproductive in that regard.
I could really go on and on in terms of the way it has affected us. The important thing is, I think ALL of us are affected by the ideas of feminism, and I believe that, even though most women today would not call themselves feminist, most of us have a feminist mindset. It’s unconsciously dripped into our veins. So all of us need to consider whether the way we’re thinking is based on popular ideology, or whether our thoughts and behaviors are more guided by the Word of God. The two ways of thinking often stand in direct opposition of one another.
SMR: With so many negative influences bombarding women from a very early age about what is acceptable, attractive, and appropriate, how can they combat and avoid these poor influences to ensure that they are “Word-Instructed” rather than “World-Instructed?”
Mary: You need to learn to feed yourself truth. You need to critically evaluate the books and magazines you read, the television shows you expose yourself to, and also all of the other counsel you listen to. You need to spend time in God’s Word. You also need to evaluate the influence of the friends you expose yourself to, and the circles that you run in. You do need to surround yourself with godly counsel and seek godly wisdom.
That doesn’t mean that you shut yourself off and become a recluse, don’t engage with those who think differently, and don’t engage with what the world has to say. But it does mean that you do need the counteracting balance of godly influence from godly people. Your friends and counselors ought to be godly people. The people who you go to for advice should be godly people. The people who you pour your heart out to at the deepest level ought to be godly people who will give you godly advice and counsel. Where you turn to in terms of what you read, how you process information, and how you make decisions. It’s about getting godly input. If you don’t intentionally seek to do things God’s way, you will, by default, do things the wrong way.
I just think of the verse Proverbs 5:5-6. It talks about the wild woman whose feet go down to death. It says that ways wander, “and she doesn’t even know it!” So, you have to be intentional about the way you live. If you don’t intentionally seek out God’s wisdom your path will wander.
SMR: Many women these days are very aggressive and desperate when it comes to securing a husband. What can they do to trust God to orchestrate their love story, especially when “the clock is ticking”?
Mary: It’s difficult to be a young woman in this culture. Women have been trained to be aggressive. Sadly, this has created a generation of passive, and dare I say infantile men, who don’t want to grow up. They don’t want to take responsibility. They’ve lost what it means to be a man. And so you have a number of factors making it difficult for single women.
What makes it even more difficult is that the church has also been feminized, and so the proportion of females to males in the church environment is hugely disproportionate. There are many more women than men. The challenges for women who nowadays long to find a life partner in a godly, Christian man are very real. Statistically, it is impossible for each and every one of them to have a husband. This often raises the desperation level, which, of in turn can cause women to be even more aggressive, manipulative, and wilder in the way they go after men.
So, how do you avoid being the desperate, manipulative woman? I think you avoid it by picking up your cross daily, holding Christ dear, and submitting your entire heart, life, life plan, and all your desires to Him. You counteract it by being busy with a mission instead of lying in wait for a guy. Instead of having a predator mentality, you really rely on God to orchestrate your love story. That’s not to say that women are to be totally passive. If you want to get married, it’s important to spend time in environments where you might meet godly guys. Often the best type of environments are one in which you are serving Jesus: service to the poor, oppressed, those who need to see the provision of Christ in their lives in some way, those hurting, the abused, the hungry, the widows, the orphans, and in the prisons. Oftentimes, it’s “as you are going” and making disciples that the Lord will provide someone of like mind and heart, and put you future mate in your path.
It’s also important that women learn to be responsive, engaged, and friendly. You don’t just silently sit in the corner and wait for the right guy to come along. There’s an active element to meeting people and building relationships. You need to keep your focus on Jesus, your mission in life, and staying engaged with people and in environments where relationships can grow and flourish. Also, it comes down to trusting that God cares about your life and that as you commit your path to Him, He will lead, guide, and direct your path.
SMR: At one point you mention God’s design for women to be that of a steel magnolia, meaning “beauty with perseverance, softness with backbone, delicacy with durability, sweetness with stamina.” How is it possible for women exhibit this godly demeanor while surviving a society that encourages and glorifies independent, loud, and aggressive women?
Mary: Good question. I think that the more we seek Christ and the more we evaluate and judge our lives according to God’s standards, the more He begins to transform us into who He created us to be. I look back at my own life, and I know that biblical womanhood has been a journey for me. I probably could have gone down the loud, aggressive path quite easily just due to the nature of my personality. How did I avoid doing that? I immersed myself in the Word of God, meditated on the Word of God, and asked God to do His work in my heart. I relied on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and asked the Lord to point out those areas in my life where I needed correction. I asked the Lord to give me the gentle, quiet spirit that is so very precious in His sight.
So, again, it doesn’t come down to a checklist or trying to force ourselves to act a certain way. So many women think, “Okay, well that means I can’t talk, or I need to be silent, or I really need to pull back and be sheepish.” It really means none of those things. God doesn’t violate our personalities. He redeems them for His glory – in all their wonderful diversity. As I become more like Christ— I become more “me.” Christ draws out the beauty of who I am as a woman. I believe that every woman becomes more of that steel-magnolia-type of woman the closer she walks with the Lord.
SMR: Many women either dress in a way that draws inappropriate attention to themselves or in frumpy, out-of-date styles to conceal their beauty. In what ways can women balance clothing themselves in a way that is appropriate and God-exalting but also stylish and flattering?
Mary: We’re always making judgment calls about the way we dress. Scripture doesn’t give us hard and fast guidelines for what constitutes modest dress. The tough thing is that modesty is to some extent, culture dependent. So if you want to be modest and stylish/beautiful at the same time, you might want to ask the men in your life for some advice. Ask your father, your brothers, cousins, or your husband—a man who is interested that you present yourself in way that doesn’t attract inappropriate attention.
It’s important to dress attractively. A godly woman is an attractive woman, she is a feminine woman, and she does pay attention to her appearance. For the Christian woman, the outward is to be a reflection of the inward. And don’t forget, the best person you can ask about your clothes is your counselor—the Holy Spirit. He has a vested interest in making sure your “temple” is both modest and beautiful.
SMR: Nowadays relationships are upside down with roles being reversed. Women are taking on the male’s role of being the pursuer and head of the house, men are taking the backseat in running their families and homes, and both are resenting one another for it. How can men and women, both married and single, set the record straight in their marriage, current or future?
Mary: If you are entering into a dating relationship, I think that you need to establish the right patterns right up front. The patterns that you establish when you’re getting to know a young man will become ingrained in your relationship. If you constantly call him, text him, Facebook him, ask him out, and pursue him, then that pattern won’t change after marriage. So, for women who are establishing relationships, I would say watch for the patterns that are developing. If you see a pattern developing in which you are the one pursuing, controlling, and setting the pace, then you might just want to take a deep breath, step back, and see if he steps up and rises to the occasion. You want to create a vacuum so he can start to exercise godly leadership. If he doesn’t, you might want to re-evaluate if that’s the right relationship for you.
It’s more difficult for a married woman who has already had that pattern established in her marriage and in her life. I see this often. Women ask me, “What do I do? I’m finding that my marriage is really lopsided. I’m the one who’s the leader. I’m the initiator. I’m the one on patrol. Our roles are reversed and both of us are very unhappy.” In this situation, you need to pray and ask the Lord to change your controlling pattern of behavior. The way a woman evokes manhood in a man is to become more womanly. The more womanly you become, the more you will encourage his manhood. Now that takes some doing when the patterns have been set. But, I’ve seen time and time again that as a woman is transformed by the power of God, she becomes more womanly, and brings out the manhood in her husband. Again, there’s no set formula. You pray a lot. You follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Because of the warped cultural ideals for manhood and womanhood, it’s important for us to hold up our romantic relationships to the light of Scripture, to see if they follow God’s pattern and design.
SMR: How does Scripture encourage women to be wise? What are some practical ways that women can stand against the cultural tide and become wise, not wild?
Mary: Scripture very clearly teaches that all the depths of wisdom are found in Jesus Christ, and that who we are as male and female points to the gospel. How we interact as men and women points to the relationship of Jesus Christ to His Father and Jesus Christ to His Church-Bride. So, if we want to become increasingly wise, we need to become increasingly grounded in Jesus Christ and in His Word. We need to think more theologically in terms of our behavior. That sounds a little daunting, and yet, it makes a huge practical difference.
If I understand that who I am as a woman is meant to model the relationship of the Church interacting with Christ and Christ interacting with the Father, then that has enormous implications for my day to day behavior. It affects the way I interact with my husband, the way I respect him, delight in him, and respond to him. It affects how I respond to him at the breakfast table. It affects how I respond to him in bed. It affects how I relate and interact with him when there’s an issue to be solved and when we’re facing a critical time in our lives. The more grounded we are in Jesus Christ and His Word, the more it practically influences our behavior and the more wise we become. So, in order to become wiser, the bottom line is we need to become lovers of Jesus and lovers of His Word, and that will help us to walk more wisely.
SMR: You challenge young women to join the quiet counter-revolution. What does that look like?
Mary: The quiet counter-revolution is first of all a personal revolution, in terms of how you live your life as a woman. You need to make decisions on a personal level to live counter-culturally. Then, you take that into your relationships. A biblical view of womanhood affects how you interact with men in the workplace, in dating or marriage relationships, in your church, and the way you relate to all the men around you. You do that in a counter-revolutionary way when you do it according to the Bible.
It also means being very intentional about engaging others in the discussion. You talk to others about what you have learned it means to live biblically as a woman. You could host a Bible study. You could help make a public statement by signing the True Woman Manifesto, and encourage others to sign it. (TrueWoman.com)
It just means being intentional. It means living radically, counter-culturally in a way that’s visible and in a way that impacts others. And then, raising the next generation to think differently. The women of this generation can train the girls and boys how to be the husbands and wives of the next generation. Perhaps, if you’re teaching a Sunday school class, then that’s something that you might want to be teaching and training those in your class. Womanhood is a discipleship issue. It needs to be integrated into who we are and into our lifestyle, thought patterns, speech, and really every aspect of our lives. As we do that on a personal basis and as we spread the message, I believe that’s when we will see a swell in the counter-revolution.
When I say counter-revolution, I mean a counter-revolution amidst the people of God. This message is a message for the people of God. How can we hope to image the truth about Jesus Christ through our manhood and womanhood if we don’t know Jesus Christ? I think the message of counter-revolution can certainly impact culture, and yet, that’s not where the change will take place. The change takes place in the hearts of the believers, and the change takes place in the church. And then, it becomes so attractive and so beautiful that many more will be drawn to Christ.
SMR: That’s a great point. I think so many times people don’t realize what they believe or why they believe it, and so, it becomes a legalistic list of to dos. We’re living more by the letter of the law than by a personal relationship and gravitation toward Christ where we emulate Him and live the ideal life He has intended for us to.
Mary: Certainly there’s a sense where living by Christian principles can be very beneficial for everyone. Whether they are married or not, a couple will have a better marriage if they follow the biblical directives to remain faithful. So there is a general benefit that comes from following the ways of the Lord. At the same time, I wouldn’t insist that my neighbor, who’s not a Christian, submit to her husband. She can’t possibly understand what that means outside of the context of what it looks like in Jesus Christ and what He taught it to mean. The Holy Spirit is a counselor and guide who helps a woman wrestle with how to life uprightly in a broken world, when to confront sin and how to do it in a godly way, when to stand up and say no in a godly way, when to draw lines and boundaries, and not just acquiesce to everything. You need God’s spirit in you as a wife to give you the wisdom and power to submit to your husband in the right way. So, the message to live counter-culturally by adopting biblical principles for womanhood is a message primarily for the church.
SMR: Finally, is there any particular message you would most like the readers of Girls Gone Wise in a World Gone Wild to take away from your book?
Mary: We’re seeing a real resurgence in biblical womanhood and attention to what manhood and womanhood is about. That’s a very positive, wonderful thing, and I’ve very glad for it. However, there’s a caution here, because whenever Satan can’t get us on one side, he will get us on the other. In some quarters, there are those who exalt biblical womanhood and make it their “god.” Biblical womanhood is supposed to display the beauty and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ. We must always keep that in mind, and keep the central focus on Jesus Christ, emulating him, and living in a way that puts Him on display. Ultimately, we really do not want to put biblical womanhood on display; we want to put Jesus on display through how we live as a woman. We want to avoid a distorted emphasis on womanhood that turns into a legalistic set of rules with very little grace. I think that’s an important caution: to ensure we uphold the focal and central point the glory of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ, and keep the focus on womanhood secondary to that.
I am extremely appreciative of Mary’s time, and pray that it blesses you as much as it did me. If you are interested in getting more information about Mary, her book, and her ministries, check out the Girls Gone Wise website. To find out more about the True Woman Manifesto Mary referenced, click here.
